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joshman4492
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« on: November 28, 2007, 05:51:57 PM »

Hi all

As a teenager, I have very little money, so because of this, I got the Zildjian ZBT cymbal pack for my new Pacific CXR kit. They sound fine, but I've already cracked the 16" and 18" crashes. At one point, I'm going to get a job, in which case I would be able to buy nicer cymbals. I like the way Zildjian A's sound, but I'm afraid of breaking them. My drum teacher told me that Z Customs were good for my style, but he doesn't like the way they sound. I kind of want to know what people think of Z customs, just to see if they are really bad or they just don't suit my drum teacher

Thanks
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PASHA
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« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2007, 07:09:33 PM »

Welcome...

What is your style??

PS: breaking cymbals on a regular bases is not normal, please see this info regarding the subject:

http://www.drumsoloartist.com/live/blog/view/id_57/

Hope that helps Wink
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KenSanders
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« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2007, 07:30:12 PM »

Josh – I think you should hold up on the Z's for the moment and think more about choosing appropriate cymbals for your music style.  Perhaps, you also need to look at how you mount your cymbals on your stands. 

FIRST ABOUT THE CYMBALS
Whether you look at Zildjians, Paistes, Sabians, Meinls, ……whatever;  and any of the models in ONE OF THEIR SERIES (i.e. Z's); you will notice they make different WEIGHT designations (THICKNESSES) for the actual cymbals.

Drummers that crack cymbals, most typically, are using cymbals that are TOO THIN for the volume of the music being played.  Therefore, your ZBT cymbals may have cracked because they are simply TOO THIN for your playing purposes.  The Z Customs also come in weights Thin, Medium-Thin, Medium, Medium-Heavy, and Heavy.  My point is that if you simply buy a Z Custom Thin or Medium-Thin; you may just crack another (and more expensive) cymbal.

Let me use Zildjian cymbals as an example, since you talked about Zildjians in your post.  In the “A” Zildjian series, you could purchase a 16”, 17” or 18” crash in the ROCK model.  That cymbal’s weight is HEAVY.  It is designed for hard and loud playing…..to take the “punishment” so to speak. 

Other companies may call these types of cymbals RUDE, Metal, Rock, or just Heavy Crashes, but the common factor is that they are the heavier weight cymbals designed to withstand hard hits and cut through very loud music.
That's my suggestion to consider about the actual choice of replacement cymbals.

MOUNTING YOUR CYMBALS
Now, the way you mount your cymbals could be a MAJOR concern too. Even if you have the plastic sleeves in place on the cymbal rod; and the cymbal felts both under the cymbal bell and atop the cymbal bell, it is the tightness of the WING NUT that you must make sure is correct.  If the cymbal can not move very freely when you crash it, then it is tightened down TOO TIGHT. 

Here’s a tip for you.  Are the felts are so thick, that when you secure you wing nut down.....the cymbal can not move freely?  If so, you can simply TRIM THE THICKNESS of the felts.  You might cut the top felt in half, and presto, the thinner top felt now allows the cymbal to move freely.  This free movement, not only protects your cymbal from absorbing a direct hit (with no “give” room)……your cymbal with vibrate freely and actually SOUND BETTER.

By the way the Z Customs ARE cool sounding cymbals, but they may not be HEAVY enough for your style and energy.
 


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Ken Sanders
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joshman4492
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« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2007, 07:38:30 PM »

Well, I play hard rock/metal in a Keith Moon/John Bonham like manner. Though I'm definitely not as good as either of them yet, I'm trying to head in that direction. Supposedly Z Customs are built for this style and my drum teacher said they were durable. Also, ZBT crashes have been known to break within the first 2-3 months, so it's not that unusual
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PASHA
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« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2007, 09:08:43 PM »

Also, ZBT crashes have been known to break within the first 2-3 months, so it's not that unusual

josh... You are saying that you are a hard hitting drummer and thats why you tend to break cymbals??


Well if you ask me, or if you have heard me play, (I am SUPER heavy hitter at times) you could guess that I can break ANY splash/crash/ride (thin to medium) in 1 to 3 minutes IF NEEDED!! Wink Nevertheless, I still play one of my ZBT splashes that I bought around 6 or 7 years ago  Cool - did I mention that there is no cracks on it whatsoever?

The whole idea behind getting a more expensive cymbal in order to stop the breakage is COMPLETELY wrong!!

As Ken have mentioned, the thickness of the cymbal and the "way" you actually hit it is the key... Not the brand or the price!

Of course the more expensive cymbal will be A BIT more durable, but this will not stop you from breaking it.

Hope that helps Huh
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joshman4492
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« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2007, 09:27:37 PM »

That helps a lot! Thanks
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KenSanders
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« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2007, 09:59:02 AM »

I am assuming that your HARD HITTING style is a necessity to produce significant volume needed for your musical requirements. PASHA has already advised you that breaking cymbals is NOT a normal situation.  Famous drummers, who are heavy hitters, use the appropriate cymbals and mount them correctly..... they don't trash a set of cymbals every performance.

I am NOT steering you towards buying Paiste cymbals with the following suggestion, only to the information about CYMBALS IN GENERAL you would gain.

 On the Paiste website, each cymbal in one of their series (Traditonals, Signature, Rude, 2002, etc.) includes a complete descrition of the cymbal's playing charactersitcs.  What I would want you to read there is that in addition to the weight and sustain; Paiste also lists the voume levels the cymbals were designed to handle.   You should get some idea of the cymbal thickness required to handle loud and very loud volume levels from reviewing this.

You cited Keith Moon and John Bonham as examples of your own hard hitting style.  Now Keith Moon played in an era prior to the introduction of ROCK WEIGHT cymbals being developed.  If you look at footage of him playing, you will certainly see how much his cymbals MOVED after he crashed them.  You will see the same kind of movement in John Bonham's cymbals too.

I have played professionally for many years, and I have cracked a crash cymbal.  It was because I was trying to play an 18" Thin Crash in an arena performance that required very high volume levels.  That was an expensive  lesson in learning to use volume appropriate cymbals. All cymbals have a maximun volume threshold.  Beyond that threshold, hiting them harder doesn't produce more volume...but it will crack them.

I hope this helps you to select whatever model cymbals best suits your playing requirements.

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Ken Sanders
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« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2007, 05:53:12 PM »

I personally couldn't agree more with the previous statements. I personally use all sabian cymbals and I went through a phase where I was playing metal and hardcore rock. Nothing wrong with that at all but I to would add that I would look into buying like a AA Metal X or something thick. When I first started out I had a set of ZBT's and a set of B8's and to this day I still have them. I gigged with them from small venues to out door festivals and luckely never broke one.

You might also look at cymbal placement, I might be the only one that had this problem but I always tried to set my kits up to look like another drummer I saw. I would always pay more attention to how they look from the audience rather than how they feel. This in turn would sometimes cause me to put cymbals either to far away or to close. I'm not sure how your setup it but make sure there a comfortable distance and your not choking them.

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Nate Pina
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joshman4492
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« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2007, 02:00:44 PM »

OK, this makes sense. The cymbals I have are too thin for me. I have the ZBT Pros, so I should be playing rock cymbals. Also, I should probably chop my felts a little. How thin should my felts be for my kind of playing?

My dad and I also contacted the guy who sold the cymbals to us. He said that he can get us a return authorization to try and get replacement cymbals. I'm not expecting much though.

I will check out the Paiste website, because I do like Paistes.
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PASHA
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« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2007, 03:14:09 PM »

Also, I should probably chop my felts a little. How thin should my felts be for my kind of playing?

I am sorry - What are you referring to as "Felts"??
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joshman4492
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« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2007, 03:46:48 PM »

The little felt type things that are on the cymbal stands
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KenSanders
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« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2007, 04:44:20 PM »

IF.....it is the thickness of the cymbal felts that are causing too much tension on your cymbals then they can be trimmed.  As stated previously, you want your cymbals to move very freely when they are crashed.

You might start by trimming about 1/3 of the present thickness off of the top felt.  I'll suspect that would do it, but if not you could certainly trim off a little more.

Most of the major cymbal makers have crashes designed for HARD ROCK playing and METAL playing.  Since you mentioned PAISTE, I highly recommend that you check out the following models on their website:

RUDE Medium Heavy Crashes
RUDE Crash/Rides

Signature Power Crashes

2002 Power Crashes

These are all designed for heavy hitters and for producing extreme volume.  None of these are cheap, but if you care for them properly they should provide you with many years of dependable service.

 
At a lower price-point there is also the Paiste "Alpha" series.  You may want to try them out too.



You may also want to read my blog: SELECTING CYMBALS 101

You can access that at:  http://www.drumsoloartist.com/live/blog/view/id_71/

Good luck!

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Ken Sanders
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joshman4492
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« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2007, 05:18:57 PM »

I've heard good things about the PST 5 series. They come in a rock size and I like the way they sound. If I can work up enough money, I might get them because I think I can make them last, thanks to all of your advice
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PASHA
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« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2007, 07:55:14 PM »

The little felt type things that are on the cymbal stands

Ah... That  Shocked

Well (correct me if I am wrong) but the only purpose of those, is to provide a softer "connection" between the cymbal and the stand.

So keeping that in mind and (just as Ken said), you can trim them off a little, the idea is to have your cymbals move freely while still providing the cushion between the cymbal and the place it sits on the stand.
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KenSanders
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« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2007, 05:26:48 PM »

Josh,

Good luck with your cymbal search, and with your other drumming endeavors as well.

I believe you have discovered that the drummers who read the posts on this DSA Forum, are most willing to share advice, and tips ...if they have something worth offering.  They get nothing from this other than the satisfaction of trying to help. 

Take advantage of that as you find other topics you wish to discuss.... and when the time comes for you to share your own years of musical experience.....give that back to aspiring young drummers.  
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Ken Sanders
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joshman4492
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« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2007, 10:15:35 PM »

So keeping in mind what I've been told, I'm looking at cymbals. I might be able to get some high end ones soon, and I have some ideas, tell me what you people think

Either
Zildjian A series Rock sizes
or
Paiste 2002 Power sizes

I'd like to lean towards the Paistes but the Zildjians aren't as expensive, but both seem to fit my heavy style of playing

What do you people think?
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PASHA
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« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2007, 12:41:33 AM »

Personally, I think you should go by the ear on this one - pick what ever sounds best for YOU!! Wink

PS: Let us know what was your decision!
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joshman4492
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« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2008, 05:23:04 PM »

So I replaced my cymbals and I ended up with the Paiste PST 5 Rock series with a 20" Ride, 16" and 18" crashes, and 14" hi hats...they are awesome! They completely blow the ZBT's away...

Also, after making the felts smaller, I decided to remove the wing-nut as well, which worked well for the crashes after Zildjian replaced them, so thanks for all your advice everybody
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PASHA
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« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2008, 11:03:13 PM »

You are welcome! - Rock on!! Wink
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KenSanders
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« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2008, 10:47:22 AM »

Joshman

I am glad to hear that you found some cymbals that suit your style. 

Ken Sanders
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Ken Sanders
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