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For those who is going crazy over the quantity of votes... - Drum Solo Artist

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PASHA
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« on: October 03, 2007, 10:15:11 PM »

Just wanted to Remind it again, - just because one can get a 1000 people to cast a good vote for his drum solo, would not mean that he will become the winner. Remember that there is also the Competition Jury, who will essentially decide up on the winners. Now I am not saying that user votes do not matter, they do, but just dont get crazy with the whole voting issue, as being voted number 1 BY USERS does not necessarily make one the winner.

Cheers, and good luck! Wink
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ErikTruelove
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« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2007, 03:52:06 PM »

That brings up a few questions. Such as, When will the competition be over? How many Jury members will there be? Will you be averaging the voting score & jury score together to get the finla score? Who is selecting the jury and how will you know if a jury member is not affiliated with certain contestants or even an actual contestant? I'm sure there are lots of other questions that others may have, but these were just a few that have come to my mind since the rules seem to be sort of vague.
Thanks
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PASHA
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« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2007, 10:22:01 PM »

The rules are Not vague, (maybe I did not describe all of them good enough in the terms and conditions), but since you are the first person to ask for an explanation, they may seem a little vague from outside. More than that, We are doing this for the first time, and considering the uniqueness of this competition, (there is no other Online drum solo competition, so we dont have any Other place to learn from), some of the rules have been changed somewhere in the middle of the competition timeframe. (I had great concerns and reasons for allowing that change) - I am talking about the user votes here. - Since one of the jury members was able to proof that User rating does not work the way it was originally intended, We will be giving user votes even less value when the final decision will be drawn.

Originally, the idea was to take the jury votes and the user votes, average them and that would give us the final score. But since MOST of competition members have in one way or another promoted their competition entry, inviting "off site" users to cast a vote for their solo... - Dont get me wrong, it is allowed, but those users seem to cast a high score (like 5 or 7) for the solo they been invited and in the same time they cast between 1 and 3 for other solos, just to bring them down... - you see where I am going?

As for the rest of your questions:
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When will the competition be over?

It is over, currently we are waiting the jury votes and are getting ready to announce the winners.
Please check the News section for this announcement, it has been posted a couple days ago...

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How many Jury members will there be?

11 for sure, maybe 12...

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Who is selecting the jury and how will you know if a jury member is not affiliated with certain contestants or even an actual contestant?


Me... I select the jury, and half of jury members are site moderators, and those who supported the contest financially, and (initially) helped with the rest of the things to start it up. - that should give you an idea of their NON involvement with other members. The other half of the Jury is not even a part of DSA, they are (for the most part) Authority drummers, names of who I am sure you know...


PS: reply if you will have any other questions or concerns.
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ErikTruelove
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« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2007, 11:04:23 PM »

Hey Pasha,
thanks for the quick reply and the clarification. I think that this is a great outlet for drum soloists, for a first time venture it seems to be doing well. I think taking the "popularity contest" out of it like that is a good idea. Thanks again
Erik
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PASHA
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« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2007, 11:28:08 PM »

You are welcome!  Wink
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Progressiveman
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« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2007, 04:34:00 PM »

That's nice.

Good job.
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Desert_Drummer
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« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2007, 10:47:17 AM »

Then it seems to me useless to even have "outside" voters even participate. Perhaps it should be more like Guitar Center's drum off where 3 judges vote for the winners, period.

Chip Ritter had the most votes and didn't even place in the top 3, mind you 3rd place had a 3 way tie. That doesn't make sense to me and it seems unfair to Chip who is a really good drummer. You're basically saying that outside votes matter very little in this competition. Sure, popularity is subjective but I know for a fact that Erik Truelove for example, entered the contest but voted for me so we can't assume that everyone would just vote for themselves. Further, Erik invited other people to take a listen to all of the solos and vote for their favorite one, not necessarily his.

I'm glad that there was such a great turn out but this seems a little strange. Who are the judges and why were the picked? Is that something we can at least know about?

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PASHA
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« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2007, 02:06:35 PM »


I'm glad that there was such a great turn out but this seems a little strange. Who are the judges and why were the picked? Is that something we can at least know about?


Well... I am sorry, but I promised not to reveal any identities, Perhaps anyone from the Jury would jump in to the conversation Wink

Nevertheless, I can explain everything else:

The idea was to have 15 Jury members, coming from a different, professional musical backgrounds, to cast 15 votes to each solo, in order to make it fair for the contenders... - All contenders would get the same amount of votes.
I already had 5 of them prior announcing the whole thing. - They are the people that were helping to set the whole thing up, promote, etc... (we actually worked 2 month to get the competition going prior announcing it), One of those 5 members is the General Sponsor of this Online Drum Competition and a known drummer/percussionist with major albums in Japan and North America. The other one is me... So in order to fulfill the goal of having 15 jury members, I had to get another 10 (that actually turned out harder to achieve than I was expecting) as all jury members HAD to listen and vote for every solo (so that all contenders would have the same amount of jury votes, which would make it fair for contenders) - The problem is that most of the Big Name drummers that I have contacted, said that they do not have the time to listen to 30+ drum solos. So to make the long story short, We got 3 Authority Drummers (names of who I am sure you know (or at least heard about) and other 4 is the members of DSA community, that replied to this post:
http://www.drumsoloartist.com/live/drumforum/index.php/topic,384.0.html

So we got 12 jury members...

Now from what you see we only have 10 Jury votes instead of 12, that is because 2-3 people decided to back up, and to not vote, I dont have the information as to who exactly did not vote, because the current system does not track this info, but in the end we only have 10 Jury votes. - Which I think is More than good enough to judge around 30 drum solos.


Now regarding the User votes:

The initial idea was to sum up user and jury votes and the result would give the final vote...
But I decided to back up from this idea because I had multiple evidences of an unfair user voting's...
To give you an example, you say that Chip, invited others to listen to all the solos, and I am not saying that it is not true, but users that came to "listen" did not even listen to more than 2 - 3 solos, but made their vote! So the result was that IF the Competitor is able to Promote his solo better than the others he would get more points from the visitors that he/she is able to bring.

Now lets say I can get 5000+ people to come and vote for my own solo... - Should that make me a winner? Even if I am definitely not as good as the other competitor who is able to bring only 30 - 50 people to vote for him? ---- You see where I am going?

Now I agree that the whole idea of user voting did not work (initially we thought that visitors would listen to at least MOST of the solos and we will not have a situation where one user has 700+ votes and the other only around 30...

The other issue that I dont entirely understand is that why are we talking about it now, after the competition has ended, and not prior the end of the event when I introduced the changes earlier in this thread...

Now I can assure you that I already have a solution for this issue for our next Online Competition.
It is simple and elegant: Jury will pick the winners of the first and the second place, and user votes alone will pick the winner of the 3rd place. - So User Rated Best will win the 3rd place!

PS: if you or anyone for that matter has a better idea Please let me know!

I hope that clears it all...
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Desert_Drummer
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« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2007, 02:52:40 PM »

I think there are some good things about the process but sometimes it reminded me of college football and how a national champion is voted for, not won on the field.

But here's an idea. Everyone has opinions about quality and a lot of drummers felt that some solos were better than others, depending on, of course, what they like and/or prefer. How about you state exactly what you're looking for in a solo so even though we don't know who the judges are we can actually know what they are looking for. That means the drummers know what to submit and if the judges are requiured to look for X, Y & Z then no one can complain.

That seems to work in gymnastics. What do you think of that?
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PASHA
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« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2007, 03:43:29 PM »

Sure!!!

Below is the Guide that I send to Jury members...

Feel free to post ideas and if they are reasonable, I will add them to the guide for the next round!

Here we go:
Quote
Hello all, you are receiving this message because you are one of the DSA Drum Competition Judges, and since the closing date is in the past, - it is time to vote!

I hope that the following guide will help you rate truthfully and fairly:


Jury Rating is based on a 10 point system, and should be done with 4 parameters in mind:

composition and originality
performance
sound
personal liking

Each of the above parameters should be rated with 3 stars - 1 for the worst and 3 for best.

composition and originality - rate with up to 3 stars (3 being the best and 1 is worst)
performance - rate with up to 3 stars (3 being the best and 1 is worst)
sound - rate with up to 3 stars (3 being the best and 1 is worst)
personal liking - rate with 1 star if you like the solo, and none if you dont like it.

So if you like the Composition of the solo, the Performance is fair (not great and not bad) and the Sound is bad, but you Like the solo over all you should count the rate as:
3+2+1+1
Where the points above represent:
3 for Composition and Originality
2 for Performance
1 for Sound
1 because you like it

The total of the points will give you the rating number to give to the solo, in the above example the rating should be 7 stars.

It is important to remember that some solos most probably have been edited for perfection, and since we are looking for a "pure talented solo" I would advice to give an extra attention to the "was this edited" subject, and keep in mind that your opinion on other people work should be fair and truthful!

Please check out and rate ALL of the compositions, and TRY to vote within the next 2 weeks (as users are anticipating).

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Desert_Drummer
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« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2007, 05:29:25 PM »

Cool. I like that. Hopefully next time that will be posted for those who want to enter the next contest. I do think that there should be some sub-statements about what you're looking for in sound, performance, originality, etc because some people do some pretty unique things that even a judge may not understand.

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PASHA
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« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2007, 12:52:21 AM »

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...some people do some pretty unique things that even a judge may not understand...

That is SOOO true!!!, - thats why personally I advised to explain "what exactly did you do" in that solo via a thread in this forum... Wink
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